"The culture moment that helped me stay in nonprofit work...”

0:07

Hi everyone. Welcome to The Nonprofit Diaries, where we share the stories that don't make the newsletter. I'm your host, Kimberly Bottom, and this week's guest is so passionate about supporting nonprofit professionals that he trademarked the phrase "nonprofiter," which is how you describe someone who believes the people are just as important as the mission.

0:28

I love that he has faithfully dedicated a quarter century to nonprofit work, leading a range of initiatives from community to programs to advancement. He is a wordsmith with several publications already available—more coming soon. I just love his LinkedIn content because it mixes that thought leadership and lived experience with humor and lightheartedness, something we all need nowadays. He is also a co-host of another podcast called Good Nonsense, which, much like The Nonprofit Diaries, brings an honest take to life in the social sector.

1:03

So, loyal listeners, please welcome the nonprofit godfather himself, Evan Wildstein. Evan, welcome!

1:10

Hello, hello! Wow, that was too much, but also perfect.

1:14

I feel like it's just enough! There's actually stuff I left out, like you're a dad and a self-described "recovering rock star." I feel like you're always going to be a rock star. I'm also a musician myself, though probably not to the level that you are, but I love that.

1:29

Yes, we should start a band!

1:31

Nonprofiters: The Band! It's like The Lumineers, but the nonprofit version.

1:36

Okay.

1:37

Instead of all their songs being named after female names like Gloria or Cleopatra, we could just do the names of bad former bosses!

1:53

That tracks with the typical content that we're getting here on The Nonprofit Diaries. So yeah, we can absolutely go down that road.

1:59

Okay, more to come on that, guys! Setting the stage for your diary entry: none of us are going to argue that nonprofit work is hard, even though it's rewarding and wonderful in ways that no other profession can be, right? We keep hearing about this burnout and turnover, but you have had an almost 25-year career in nonprofits. I mean, first of all, what's your secret?

2:20

You know, maybe at the end of the career that will make sense. I'm a little bit more than midway through my career, so when I'm at the end of it, maybe I'll have a prescription for it.

2:31

But I generally find that the thing that keeps me here—and this is interesting to say because about a week ago I was chatting with a couple colleagues north of the border up in Canada, the YMCA WorkWell people, Dave and Kate. They're amazing, and they do the same type of work and research that I get to do down here, up in Canada. At the beginning of that chat, one of them said to me, "I didn't realize until looking at your LinkedIn that you actually still work in nonprofits to this day."

3:00

I think there is this misconception if you are one of the three people who follow my stuff online that I consult, vend, or coach. But except for one very small detour in the earlier part of my career, the joke I like to make is that 501(c)(3)s have provided my W-2s—and for your non-U.S. listeners, that is a tax joke about the fact that actual nonprofits have paid my paycheck for just about a quarter century.

3:30

To your point, when we met through mutual connections at The Nonprofit Hive—I feel like I'm dropping their name every time I have a person on the podcast because they're just such a great conduit of community—I assumed that you were a coach or a consultant, because your content is so heartwarming.

3:49

It really is something where you'll just drop a post that says, "Hey, you're changing the world. Somebody probably didn't tell you that today, so let me be the one." You're really just doing the work and understanding how hard it is, knowing that people need to feel seen, prioritized, and loved on—which I 100% agree with.

4:07

In your own personal journey, you mentioned to me that there were past experiences that made you consider leaving, but one specific moment made you want to stay. I love that flip of the narrative. Give us a little insight into that experience for you.

4:24

So, I work for a really fabulous, small-to-medium Montessori school here in Houston. It's the oldest of its kind in the American Southwest. For those not familiar with Montessori, at our school in particular, we have students as young as 14 months all the way up through high school.

4:44

At the time when I began this job, my son was very young and in schooling of his own. It was, I think, the second or third day on the job, and our kiddo got hand, foot, and mouth disease. For non-parents listening or parents of kids who haven't gotten hand, foot, and mouth yet, it's pretty gnarly and all-consuming, both for the parents and the kid.

5:09

So on day two or three, I had to call my boss and say, "I know I just started, but kiddo is sick." I just paused to see what the reaction would be. My boss, who's reasonably awesome in all the right ways, said, "Your job right now is father, not employee. Go do what you've got to do, let's keep in touch, and swing back in when you're ready."

5:33

Two or three days went by before I even picked up the phone to call again. He got better, I came back into work, no one made a fuss, and it was just easy. It's not hard to be human, but a lot of people don't have that experience.

5:47

Outside of your own experiences—which are wonderfully varied and provide a lot of different insights—you're also a data guy. You want to gather real information so that we can actually understand and diagnose any sort of problem to figure out how to move forward. You do that through something called the Social Impact Staff Retention Project. Tell us a bit about that.

6:08

After 25 years—or even after 5 years—you come to some realizations intuitively based on what you've experienced and seen. The colleague I do that work with is Michelle Flores Vryn. If anyone has heard of me or my work, they've definitely heard of Michelle. She happens to be here in Texas as well.

6:28

Back in 2022, we co-led a session for the Houston Association of Fundraising Professionals. It was at a moment in time when self-care and self-practices were encouraged, budgets weren't getting pulled back yet, and we weren't scrubbing DEI language from websites.

6:49

We led this session that was supposed to be a tiny little workshop, but the event convener said, "Too many people want to come, so we're going to put you in a big room." It turned into a massive vent-fest! We had a whole PowerPoint presentation planned and maybe got through 10 minutes of it before hands started going up. People were just sharing things we had experienced ourselves. We had just spent two and a half years locked in a room with a Zoom screen, and people needed to talk.

7:20

Michelle and I went out to the parking lot after that and said, "That was a lot. We hope that's the beginning of the conversation, not the end."

7:29

Fast forward to fall 2023: we kicked off the Social Impact Staff Retention Project, which is an annual fall survey asking people essentially, "Are you looking for a new job now or over the next year, or are you staying?" along with the underlying reasons why.

7:50

We've done this now going into our fourth year. This fall we'll kick off the next survey. We've found some very consistent things, which is great for data accuracy, but tough regarding what it tells us about the experience of nonprofit workers in the United States.

8:14

One of the things Michelle and I find repeatedly—and I have to credit her with this, because my initial idea was to focus on why people are leaving, but Michelle brilliantly pointed out that not 100% of people are leaving. There's a group of people who are happy in their jobs and want to stay, and we should ask them why.

8:42

Unsurprisingly, the ability to flex in your work—specifically the ability to work hybrid or remote when life happens—is key. As we look over the average of all the years we've done this research, the ability to flex when necessary is one of the top reasons, if not the top reason, why people stay.

9:06

What's funny, too, is that when we look at why people leave, in this industry we tend to assume it's solely because they aren't getting paid enough. While nonprofits generally don't pay corporate-level salaries, all things being equal, even if you pay someone 30% more, if the workplace culture is still awful, the pay is only going to go so far.

9:28

On the happiness side, the things that keep people have very low hard costs, but require an emotional shift for bosses who are used to seeing people in chairs at an office. If someone needs life to flex, allow them to flex as long as the work is getting done.

10:06

Stories like that showcase how one seemingly small act of kindness or understanding makes such a huge impact. It shows executive directors that addressing turnover doesn't always require completely rethinking strategy or getting massive raises approved by the board—there are immediate, culture-based changes you can make.

10:34

Reports like yours bring that to light. You also mentioned you have an exciting new project coming up that was originally going to be a book, but you wanted it to be more dynamic and living. Tell us about that!

11:01

All the best things in the world come through my wife! Back around the late 2025 holiday season, I was thinking about writing my second book. The working title was going to be something like The Nonprofit Field Guide for Staying.

11:41

I was chatting about four to six weeks ago with my wife, and she said, "Another book, huh? Once a book is out, it's out, unless you do a second edition. Is there a magazine or something more periodical in nature you could create instead?" I realized, "Oh, I guess I'm creating a magazine!"

12:05

Over the last month, I've been working on what this will look like. The benefit is ongoing content. We find that the core reasons for staying or going remain consistent, but there are always deeper, more interesting stories to share.

12:20

I'm in the early stages, but the goal will be to feature my own essays alongside sections that function like a written version of a podcast—getting to know nonprofit people who are doing really great work.

12:37

What is the name? Does it have a name yet so we can keep an eye out?

12:41

It does! You can go to dearnonprofiter.com. It's called Dear Nonprofiter.

12:55

I love that! Simple and clear.

13:04

The subtitle is going to be: Love Letters to the People Keeping Humanity Afloat.

13:12

Oh, so good! See, this is the wordsmith I was talking about! Everyone, go follow Evan on LinkedIn if you want real, solid advice, but also just content that makes you feel good.

13:27

The people doing nonprofit work have their heads down doing hard work because they love the mission, their community, and the world. We need to love them back. Go follow Evan on LinkedIn, check out dearnonprofiter.com, and sign up for all the exciting things coming out.

13:47

Thank you so much for being here today, Evan. This is your weekly reminder to hydrate and practice self-care—and as Evan and I discussed, maybe do some stretches, because when you get into your 40s like we are, that's important too! Take care of yourselves, dear friends. Evan, thank you again for being here. I appreciate you so much.

14:05

Thank you! Good to talk.

14:07

You too. Bye everyone!