“The grievance that reshaped my approach to leadership…”

Speaker: 00:07
Hey everyone, welcome to the Nonprofit Diaries, where we share the stories that don't make the newsletter. I'm your host, Kimberly Bottom, and this week's guest is someone you want in your corner, especially if you're a woman in the nonprofit sector. Kathy spent 25 years doing the work, and now she's a coach who helps women trade survival mode. We all know, we've been there, for confident, sustainable leadership. So, like many of the guests on this podcast, I was connected with Kathy through the nonprofit hive. And when we had our initial chat, I was just so appreciative of her kind, supportive nature. It's just like a force that's in the room that makes you feel at ease. I could tell that she would be an asset to have in your corner as an objective, knowledgeable resource who will tell you like it is, but it's because she's been there. So I am so pleased to welcome Kathy Archer to our podcast. Kathy, thank you for joining us. Oh, thank you. And thank you for such a warm, heartfelt welcome. Oh my gosh. That is exactly how I would describe you. Warm and heartfelt. I just really get the vibe. We when we chatted initially, I told her I was like, it's such an important asset to have in life, definitely in your career, but in life, that that objective person who, you know, it really helps if they've done the work, but somebody who can just say, like, you're not crazy, let's work through this. Right. Exactly. So many things we just feel lost in our own minds, right? Like looking at our to-do list or trying to balance that with being present for our loved ones. Like it just it can feel like a lot. And that's really why you do what you do. Yes. Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 01:42
And it's funny because uh back in the day when we used to have, so I've been doing this work for like 16 years, but before when I was doing the work, we'd have consultants come in or or trainers, and and it felt so stiff and you know, serious. And I was like, can we just like be human here? Like like, you know, and so you know, often in my work somebody cries and I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm like, no, like that's okay. That's that's part of the work we're doing. And you know, they share something, they're like, I shouldn't have said that. I'm like, why not? That's true. Like be human, not like we're not stiff cardboard professional people that have no feelings.

Speaker: 02:20
Like, that's not who we are. I feel like the tides are changing a little bit in professional work as a whole and in the nonprofit sector, right? Which is like being a robot is not the goal. Like it's okay to be human. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and present as overwhelmed. Like people are not gonna think less of you as a leader. If anything, they'll relate to you more because we've all been there. So you are obviously a compassionate and caring leader now, and that has taken some experiences, some work, right? Um, that doesn't happen overnight. And what we're gonna talk about today, I realize, is probably gonna be a bit of a wound for you because I know that the the parts of your career that have made you stronger probably broke you down a little bit first. And you had mentioned that, you know, the the experience that you went through was when your team had some feedback that was really hard for you to hear, right? So, like take us back to that season of your nonprofit career. What was happening before this um this grievance that we that we're gonna talk about that you had with your team?

Speaker 1: 03:20
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I think I've always been that kind, heartfelt person, um, caring, very relationship-oriented, lots of feelings. But when, like I say, when you move into leadership, it's like, okay, like you got things to do and let's get stuff done. And we don't have time or space or or that those emotions feel weak. Um, but I maintained that relationship-oriented way of leading for a long time. And it's what grew our team, and we did well, and so well that we got a big contract. Um, and when we got the big contract, you know, the the way of leadership that I did, where I was values driven, I, like I said, I cared, um, kind of started to take a back seat bit by bit by bit. So I would say things like, My family's the most important to me, you know, family's my top value, but I'm working late and I'm there on Sundays. And when somebody phoned to say, Oh, my kid's sick, I'd be like, Really? Like, really? You know, we kind of need you here, right? And so, yeah, what I said wasn't what I was doing. Um, open door policy, always here for you, and yet wouldn't respond or not available, or you know, those kinds of things. Um, people would push back and say, the workload's too much, I feel stretched, and I'd be like, uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay, you want another client? Here's another client, right? Like, we need you to pick up another client. That's all I can tell you. Like, we don't have a choice here. I hear you, but I wasn't really hearing you. And so over time, the staff started to go, well, this isn't the way Kathy has led. This isn't the type of leadership we want. And they pushed back. And and I didn't have, as we grew and expanded, as typically happens in nonprofits, we don't expand the admin dollars. We don't expand the capacity to support the work. And so everybody gets stretched. And as that happened, um, first my performance appraisal said Kathy lacks integrity, which was like a knife in the heart. Like, come on, like that, that's not who I am, right? Like you see who I am, don't you? Like, you know I'm trying really hard. Um but then when things got really bad, the staff filed agreements against me. And that was like the biggest wake-up call. And at that moment, I was like, I don't even know if I want to do this anymore, don't know if I want to be in the sector anymore. Like, I'm done, right? And my boss supported me. He'd been my boss for many years. So we'd been, you know, he knew my capacity and the type of leader I was. And he's like, I don't know what to do. Like, I'm stuck too. And so he was the one that introduced me to coaching. And so that's how I got introduced to coaching, fell in love with coaching, went and took my coach training. But at that point in time, yeah, I had somebody in my corner, somebody to listen to me. So I had that support, but also that guidance to go, are you honoring your values? Are you living your list? Because just because you say these things are important and you recite them to people, what do your actions say? And so I had to, you know, have that good look in the mirror and go, hmm, maybe not so much. Um and so it took some time and a lot of inner work for me to pull myself back to my authentic self and show up that way.

Speaker: 06:32
Well, first and foremost, thank you for coming on and being vulnerable. This is a hard moment, like you said, this is more a reflection of who Kathy is inside. No, this is a reflection of the pressures of the job and the world and the team and the family pushing you very slowly in a direction where at some point you go, when did I lose myself? Yeah. Like it didn't happen all at once, right? It couldn't have. But it it's such like I feel like everybody goes through a season of life where they look back and go, wow, I did that and I couldn't see what it really was to the people around me. So thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that because I know we've all done it, and none of us really want to relive that because it's a it's a lesson. But you turned it into such a positive thing, like the wake-up call is instead of, you know, like you said, crawling away and hiding and just completely like doing something differently and and feeling like you failed, you said, you know, there's there's no failing, there's winning and there's learning. So what did you learn through that? Now that you're a coach, what's some things that when you maybe start to feel that happening again, you do differently now?

Speaker 1: 07:42
A couple things. The first thing that I learned was I hadn't learned all of the things about how to actually lead. So we moved from frontline into leadership and we lack the competence. So I didn't know how to have some of those hard conversations. Nobody had taught me the, you know, how do you deal with that? I didn't know how to balance my workload in a way that um, you know, people pleaser, perfectionist, how do I still set boundaries and say no and prior? Like those are things that I still had to learn, right? And so part of moving into a leadership role is learning the skills. And we need to teach leaders the skills of leadership. The other part is a huge part of leadership is personal growth and development. And we think of that as outside woo-woo kind of work, right? Um, it happens after hours when I have time. No, it is fundamental to leadership. But self-reflection is key to your leadership development. That inner growth, that slowing down, and people hate the word journaling sometimes, but writing things out, right? Um, having talking to a coach, going to therapy, um, doing a meditation retreat, um, reading a good book. There's so much to that inner growth part, some of it's spirituality. It's who am I? What are my values, my ethics, my morals? How do I align with those? How do they show up in my life and my work? How do I speak to them? How do I make values-driven decisions? Like that work takes a bit of time and it's part of leadership, and we need to create the space for that in leadership.

Speaker: 09:18
Yeah. Like you said, it's almost similar to how nonprofit organizations have always traditionally run, which is like, we don't need the infrastructure. Yeah, exactly. Everything goes for business and that. And it's like, no, you do need a foundation for things to be successful. It's the same thing with personal development. If we are only ever looking outward and never looking inward, then the internal is always just slightly crumbling below us until you know a situation like you had happens where you go, how did I get here? Yeah. So recognizing that, and like you said, building the proactive systems to avoid that is now, it sounds like what you do. Yeah. So what I would ask before we leave today is for women specifically, because you are a coach for women in nonprofit sector, what do you want them to know about being a women leader in our industry? Pause. Stop. Just take it. What?

Speaker 1: 10:15
No, absolutely not. We can't do that. Anything but no, no, no. Um, I I teach a model and the first step is pause. Um, if you cannot take a breath between calls, if you can't go to the bathroom, get a drink of water, have something to eat, um, how do you make a decent decision? How do you how do you tune into your body and trust your gut instincts? How do you know when um, ooh, there's tension there and I need to pause and and think about how I want to navigate that? That pause is so critical in our in our um well-being, but also in our how we function as a leader, as an effective leader, as a leader who's able to sustain the workload. How do I know I need to say no to this meeting or leave early or delegate if you never pause, if you never stop? Um, and so I teach people to schedule pauses into their workday. Um, I mean, we work through lunch, we work through coffee bakes, we work late. Um, schedule thinking time, schedule planning time, schedule time to take a deep breath and go pee.

Speaker: 11:16
Like pause for heaven's sakes, please pause. Right? It's funny you mention that. I have a watch that it looks like a watch, but it's actually a nervous system tracker. Oh, fascinating. When I start to hit a stress response, it'll buzz on my wrist and my phone will prompt me to ask, How are you feeling? The number have looked at that and go, I don't have time for that. I'm like, wait a minute, that's the whole point. The whole reason it's buzzing is because I need to make time to look inside. Is it good stress? Is it bad stress? Am I feeling empowered and alive, or am I feeling like everything is going to explode? Even if, like, I get it, when when you say that, it sounds amazing. But as a a woman, right, in the nonprofit space in a leadership position, going, Yeah, I'm not gonna remember to buy, I'm gonna get to the end of the day and wonder where it all went. Yes. If you have to, you know, have a device to help you remind you, or like you said, a schedule, an actual block on your calendar where you say, No matter what's going on right now, I'm gonna journal for five minutes. Or I'm gonna close my eyes and take 10 deep belly breaths. Something amazing what that internal reflection will do. Even amongst the busy, like even in the busiest times, that's actually the perfect time to take a pause. And if you really truly can't, that might broaden a bigger discussion and a bigger analyzation of what's in your life. Right.

Speaker 1: 12:36
Yeah, well, and that's the discussion I often have. Okay, I scheduled it in, but every time I get to it, I just ignore it. Okay, then you know, like your watch. Now I have to have a bigger discussion about what's going on.

Speaker: 12:47
Exactly. Whether this is this is really good pressure, and like maybe it's, you know, for a moment in time. You've got a sprint for a gala or a big fundraising initiative. There, there are always gonna be those moments. But if there's never any rest, you're right. The analyzation, and we as a nonprofit industry need to analyze that as well in terms of how we are building structures and and expectations for for nonprofit professionals. So the more that the individual humans go, no, this is important and I need to do this, the more that it will become an actual workflow within our organizations that will be there to support us rather than like, you know, you experienced. It's like, oh, I know you're not feeling great, but we really need you.

Speaker 1: 13:28
It can even be that you role model it. So you get to staff meeting, and before you dive into the agenda, you're like, let's all just take a collective deep breath. Yeah. Like that's it. That's like it's so simple. But when we start to drop those little tiny things in, that's when we're gonna create the ripples in the sector. So that's my mission.

Speaker: 13:46
Yeah. Yes, I will I love that. Well, if you listening, believe in Kathy's mission mission as I do, I'm gonna drop her information in the podcast description so you can connect with her on LinkedIn, have those conversations. If nothing else, just follow her and get those tips, practical tips as she offers them. It's been such a pleasure talking to you, Kathy. Again, I appreciate your vulnerability. I appreciate your strength in moving forward and redefining your life based on a really tough moment for you. And I think we can all learn something about owning that moment, moving forward, and then supporting other people with our learned and lived experiences. So thank you so much for sharing with us today. Thank you for having me, Kimberly. It's been great. Everybody out there listening, even more apt after this episode, is your reminder to hydrate and practice self care. Schedule it in blocks, get a watch if you need to, whatever it takes. Make sure you're taking care of yourself because you are so important and appreciated by everybody around you and by people who don't even know you, like me and Kathy. So keep doing the good work, and we will see you on the next episode. Have a wonderful week, everyone.

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