"The boundaries I set to avoid burnout…"

0:07

Hi everyone. Welcome to The Nonprofit Diaries, where we share the stories that don't make the newsletter.

0:13

I'm your host, Kimberly Bottom, and this week's guest is such a treat. I met him through The Nonprofit Hive, which helps connect nonprofit professionals for weekly or bi-weekly video chats, and you can talk about anything. It's really a great way to meet people in our very remote world.

0:28

So, if you're interested, I'll link some more information in the description of this episode. So, Eric was my very first Hive chat. He immediately struck me as unapologetically real, sharp, witty, candid, kind—all the best qualities—a seasoned fundraiser. He's worked for several California-based nonprofits and started his own consulting business, Red Langanger Strategies, and he's also the mastermind behind the Nonprofit Burnbook.

0:56

For all you Mean Girls fans like me out there, if you need a place to anonymously vent or relate to others experiencing those nonprofit shenanigans, check it out, because he's not a regular nonprofit pro. He's like a cool nonprofit pro.

1:09

So, please help me welcome Eric Deama to our podcast. Eric, thank you for coming.

1:13

Of course. Of course. I'm so honored.

1:16

I am honored, my friend. So, I want to first and foremost just set the stage for your diary entry, because you've been fundraising for several years. You clearly love it, but not every step of the journey has been easy. I think a lot of us can relate to that. So, first of all, fill us in on how you got into nonprofit work.

1:34

Yeah, honestly, I started in college. I was in my bachelor's for anthropology, and then I went on to get my master's. And during that time, as many of us do, I got really close to one of my professors, who became a mentor for me.

1:55

And she ran a nonprofit focused in wildlife conservation, specifically with orangutans. So because I was trying to get my PhD at the time, I was like, "Oh, this is great! I'm going to get closer to wildlife conservation," and it kind of set me off on the path of nonprofit work. From there, I went to a lot of other nonprofit organizations—a lot of animal welfare and conservation organizations. So, that really was the start of my career.

2:28

Very nice. And obviously, it's something that, like you said, was passion-driven. But you probably, as many of us do in nonprofit work, quickly realized that the passion makes up for a lot of the hard times, right? Because it's not easy work. So tell me when you first started to realize, "Wow, I'm real tired," or "Wow, this isn't exactly what I thought it would be."

2:50

I remember I was working for an international organization with a very corporate-like structure, and I just remember the feeling of always going. There was never a time during the year that there was a slow period.

3:09

There was never a slow period; it was always just go, go, go. We mainly did peer-to-peer fundraising, and we did two pretty large-scale events. And the way that the organization was structured was area-based, so you had a territory that you managed. So I was in charge of San Diego, and those two events were all you focused on all year long. It was just a lot, so I remember feeling the strain at that point.

3:44

Yeah. What were some of those signals for you? Because sometimes I feel like in my experience as a professional, I look back and I'm like, "How did I not know sooner that I was so tired and on the edge of burnout, right?" Was it when I stopped attending anything with my friends, or when I would crash without washing my face? What were the warning signs for you?

4:08

Yeah, honestly, with that being my first full-time job, I had left a couple of part-time jobs to take that job after getting that first adult job. I think I realized, "Okay, the passion for the subject matter isn't necessarily there." Like, I believed in their mission and I thought they did really amazing work, but being in that full-time job didn't solve all of the problems. The constant expectations to do better, do more, and do higher things was really tiring. And after that, for me at least, there became a much bigger focus on, "Okay, what am I getting out of this job?"

4:56

Right. So, tell me how you pivoted once that realization kind of set in.

5:01

Yeah, I think I went on to do animal work full-time again, but in a fundraising capacity. So, this was my first time being in a full-time fundraiser role after doing it part-time on and off for a couple of years. And I learned a lot. I was working at an animal shelter, and it was a really amazing organization. But unfortunately, the culture just wasn't there. That was a big moment for me because I really hit rock bottom. To me, a lot of very important things started at that point in my life, like going back to therapy, which I have not stopped since.

5:54

Good. Right. Yes.

5:55

Right. So there was a huge shift for me in terms of my own mental health and what I was doing and how I was making choices for myself, because the way that I had traditionally gone into jobs was just to throw my entire self into them. I would work longer hours than I needed to. I'm not going to say I was working 24/7 or 18 hours a day, but I was doing more than I needed to. I was concerning myself with things that I shouldn't have; I was going above and beyond every single day. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but is it sustainable?

6:35

And when the people around you, or especially above you, take that for granted or start to take advantage of that, it's hard to turn it off, and it makes it even harder to sustain that. So, it was a tough learning curve over a couple of years. But I think finally I was like, "Okay, so nonprofits aren't inherently better than corporate America," right? In terms of mission, nonprofits are serving the world's issues—we are actually working to make the world a better place. But internally, that's not always reflected in the prioritization of the employee's well-being.

7:29

And it's rarely malicious—it's rarely like a villain twisting his mustache, thinking, "How can I take advantage of these good-meaning people?" I don't think it's that. But it's the immense pressure that nonprofits have to spend mission dollars wisely and minimize overhead.

7:48

You speak very freely about this on LinkedIn, for example, about how "nonprofit" doesn't mean not compensating people or respecting them. So you learned that lesson, and how is that informing how you're moving forward today, then?

8:03

I think exactly like that—being more outspoken, and also listening to others. There are so many amazing voices on LinkedIn and other social media channels, and not just social media, but people who are producing content and talking about this in public.

8:26

And to that point, Eric, now you're working for a nonprofit in development, right? And you are not only speaking out by posting on LinkedIn or having those conversations one-on-one with people. How is your boldness to do that impacting your career? Because it sounds like there's some fear that it might—how is that actually impacting the work that you do?

8:50

Yeah, that's a good question. I'm very lucky at my current role. My now boss in the interview was talking, and she just kind of off-handedly said, "We may work for a nonprofit, but we don't have to look nonprofit." I thought that was such an interesting statement, and I had never heard someone say that, especially in a nonprofit leadership role. I really respected that and thought, "Okay, this seems like a different environment and something that would be good for me."

9:32

It was the first time where I was like, "Okay, I don't have to be agreeable in order to do my job well. I don't have to be a yes-man." Being able to acknowledge when something doesn't work is really important. While I do feel very lucky and privileged to be at the organization I'm at, it's also not perfect. There are definitely tense days. There are days I get out of a meeting and think, "I should have approached that a little bit differently." But we're all human, and I think we just need to give ourselves a little bit of grace in that respect, but also be able to call out when we aren't being treated fairly, or when the organization is doing something we don't agree with. But that's not my decision, so I'm here to do my job and that's it.

10:26

For anybody who's listening to this going, "Okay, I feel this in my soul, this is where I am right now," or "This is where I used to be," are there any things that you could recommend? Whether it be elevating your voice on social media or seeing a therapist, what are the best practices that you've learned that help you balance that work-life balance while still serving your nonprofit?

10:48

I think my biggest takeaway that I've come to appreciate is finding community. That could be anything—The Nonprofit Hive is perfect for that. I have found so many connections, not even just through the meetings, but through their founders Tasha and Nicole. They are amazing at connecting people. So finding a place like that, if you're not in an environment where you feel like you can really connect with people, and just talking—I think that's the most important first step.

11:37

Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Honestly, that's kind of what I hope to accomplish with a podcast like this and a community like this, which is like: let's all just come together and go, "Yes, same." Even just knowing you're not alone is something that will help you take that next step to bettering yourself and knowing that you're not broken for feeling this way. You're not ungrateful because you work for a great organization and yet feel suffocated. Those are all fair things. You shouldn't judge your own experience so harshly, and I know we all do because the people working in nonprofit work are the best humans out there. They just want to be good humans.

12:18

So I appreciate you, and all the people who are watching this episode who are going to go follow your page, the Nonprofit Burnbook, and all those things are also going to appreciate you. More information on The Nonprofit Hive and the Nonprofit Burnbook are going to be in the description of this episode. Go engage with those things, get a little catharsis in your day, and get a little connection. Thank you all so much for joining. This is your reminder to prioritize self-care. Go drink some water, hydrate, you're doing great, and we appreciate you being here. Thank you guys so much. We'll see you next time.